Beeson Podcast, Episode #722 Reverend Vaughn Roberts Date >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of ɫƵ. Now your host, Doug Sweeney. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I am your host, Doug Sweeney. And I am joined today by the Reverend Vaughn Roberts who is this years Conger Lecturer in Biblical Preaching here at Beeson. Pastor Roberts serves as rector of Saint Ebbe’s Church in Oxford, England. He’s written a number of books including God’s Big Picture, Battles Christians Face, and True Friendship. We are delighted to have him here with us at Beeson this week, so thank you, Vaughn, for being with us. >>Roberts: Very good to be here. >>Doug Sweeney: Why don’t we begin by introducing you to our listeners. We always like to ask people how they came to know Jesus, early in life or whenever this happened in your life. Tell us, how’d you come to faith in Christ? >>Roberts: It was early in life, but it was after I’d been to a religious service two and half thousand times, which is a lot of religion. So, growing up, Anglican home because it was the thing you did. We lived in a village. The church was the big presence in the village and it was a kind of way of supporting the community. You went to church, so we did that. And there was Bible readings, liturgy, but no gospel preaching. Then I went to boarding school at the age of eight and formal Anglican background schools, which a lot of these schools were. And again, you’ve got religious services, Bible readings, liturgy, no gospel proclamation. So, I got to teenage years with a kind of secondhand faith without any clarity around it, and that morphed into secondhand doubts by the later teens. Then my elder sister got converted when she went to university, and she became very annoying. She basically said to the rest of the family, you’re not real Christians. And I was very offended by that because for me, being a Christian was trying to be a good person, live a moral life, and that’s what I pretended I was trying to do. But something she said got under my skin and very reluctantly, I went with her to a church where the gospel was preached. And there was something about that place that made me realize these are real Christians, I’m not. It’s something about the person of Jesus. And I knew enough about the Bible to know Jesus, gospels. So, I picked up my, I did have an old Bible, the authorized version, picked it up, blew the dust off it, and I began reading Mathew’s gospel without any kind of longing to be a believer. I just thought, I better find out about him. And within the next period of time as I read through that book, it was as if the person of Jesus walked off the pages of the Bible and into my life. And I knew, I couldn’t really explain the gospel, but I knew Jesus was Lord, I needed to follow Him, and my life would never be the same again. So, that was just in my last year in high school. >>Doug Sweeney: Wonderful. As I recall, you didn’t know when you began university that the Lord was going to lead you into pastoral ministry. How did you figure that out eventually? >>Roberts: Well finally, I went to university to study law but actually, I already went thinking that’s what I wanted to do. I didn’t think anyone would quite imagine that I could do it. But as a very young believer, I went to the Christian group at school, and I now look back on this and think this was unusual, but the timing felt normal. The teacher who ran the Christian group invited a minister to come and speak to some of the older boys and he spoke about his ministry. And he said, I can still remember it as if it was yesterday, described the ministry he was doing, he said it’s the best job in the world and the hardest job in the world. And I thought, that’s what I want to do with my life. And then I started listening to some preaching online, not online. There was no online, but on tape in those days. And I listened to Dick Lucas preaching on Colossians. And again, I thought, that’s what I want to do in my life. I want to preach like that. I don’t know what he’s doing, but I want to do that. >>Doug Sweeney: Where you a university student at that time? >>Roberts: No, this was before university. >>Doug Sweeney: So, why did you study law? >>Roberts: Already, before I got converted, I’d applied to law. And then before I went to university, I got converted. And so, I went thinking, having assumed I’d be a lawyer, thinking privately, I really want to be a minister. But I was a shy teenage and I didn’t think anyone else would imagine that I could do it, so I kept quiet. But that was my private longing. >>Doug Sweeney: Okay. >>Roberts: And then after two years of law, I spoke to my minister and things happened very quickly then, and he encouraged me. I went to a church [inaudible 00:05:16] selection conference at 21 and I went to train for ministry at 24. >>Doug Sweeney: Isn’t interesting how many people in the history of Christianity, some of them very well known, begin by preparing for a career in the law and wind up as pastors? >>Roberts: Yeah. >>Doug Sweeney: Luther, Calvin, all kinds of- >>Roberts: Absolutely. Yeah, it is fascinating. As many have said, start with law and then discover grace. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. >>Roberts: Yeah. >>Doug Sweeney: So, what was your ministry career like before you got to Saint Ebbe’s? What were you doing then? >>Roberts: Well very little because I ended up switching very young. I did two years law at the university. Cambridge University is very easy to switch subjects so I then two years theology. And in my last year, we developed a link with a Christian group at a university in Johannesburg and they invited me to go and work for them. So, this was a fascinating year or part of a year, I forget. And as an English guy, never lived abroad apart rom a few months in Israel, I ended up at 23 doing student ministry at the University of Witwatersrand in Johannesburg. And that was a huge privilege, very demanding, very exciting, and I was a big fish in a small pond, so I started preaching quite a bit and loved that. So, that was my early ministry. I would have loved to have stayed there. But I felt instinctively that at some point the new South Africa would come. None of us realized then that it would come quicker than we imagined. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. >>Roberts: And I thought it needs South Africans to lead the church into the new South Africa, and that’s not me. So, I would have loved to have stayed. It’s still got a big place in my heart. I go back regularly. But I went back to England, trained at Wycliffe Hall in Oxford, and went to Saint Ebbe’s as a student from Wycliffe. And I didn’t like Oxford very much. I didn’t find it was home, and I thought to myself, well two years of study, I’d already done two years before, another two years of theological study, then I’ll be out of here. And then I was invited to go and work at Saint Ebbe’s. And I waw a bit reluctant, but it was working with young people, and I thought, that’s what I want to do. So, I went assuming it would be three or four years. And so, my first job there was running the student ministry, running the teenage ministry, doing some other stuff. And the work grew so we had a lot of student ministry growing and growing and growing and became impossible. I virtually had to pull out of ministry. I burned out. I nearly pulled out up to four years, but then the church said, “We’re going to split your job in two. Would you just focus on the student ministry? We’ll get someone on doing the other.” And that helped my recovery, so I did another three years of that fully expecting I’d leave. But then my boss announced his retirement and at a very young age, I was 33, I was encouraged to apply. I did so reluctantly. And they appointed me. >>Doug Sweeney: By then, was Oxford feeling like home- >>Roberts: Yes. >>Doug Sweeney: Or were you always sort of a pilgrim minister? >>Roberts: No. By then Oxford was feeling home and it’s a huge privilege to be there. And Saint Ebbe’s has been home, so they’ve known me man and boy. I began as a 24-year-old there and I’ve been there since 1999, so that’s a great privilege. I’m not just the pastor; I’m very much a church member and brother as well. >>Doug Sweeney: A very special congregation from all I’ve heard. Maybe tell our listeners just for a minute or two what the church is like. >>Roberts: Yeah, an unusual congregation. We are right in the City Centre of Oxford. And Oxford, obviously, is a university city. It’s not a campus university, so there we are, and we’re surrounded by university colleges. I could throw a stone and there would be Pembroke College, where George Whitfield studies and was converted. And so, we’re surrounded by students. So, a lot of students come along from all over the world. But then, just down the road from us, we’ve got a very working-class community which we are entrusted, has been entrusted to us and so that’s a significant part of what we do as well, trying to reach that community. And then we have people from all over the city traveling in as well. So, very mixed community from literally two weeks old, the biggest growth there at the moment is birth, not just new birth but birth and so, we’re seeing loads of new babies, wonderfully. And we’ve got people in their 90s and then lots of young students as well. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. How does the town and gown kind of relationship work at your church? Is it a, does a feel like kind of one big family? Are people kind of moving in different circles because the church is big enough where you can do that? A lot of times when you’re in a university town, this is a struggle. Regular town people don’t always get along very well with Oxford University students. >>Roberts: I think given that there are lots of students at Saint Ebbe’s, if you really didn’t want to mingle with students, you wouldn’t go there. But it’s unusual. It is a residential university. No one lives at home. They travel in and they’re only there half the year, so three eight-week terms. So, less than half the year are they actually around. So, that makes it harder to fully integrate and we have a little mingling, but quite a lot of distinct student ministry. But interestingly, we’ve found in recent years the young students really want to mingle with the whole community. And so, we never called it the student service. I’ve never wanted to give any indication that unless you’re in a particular group, you’re not welcome here. Everyone’s welcome. But there was one congregation that was predominantly students, and we ended up, now that we have a balcony, we’ve got more space, we’ve stopped that, and they are loving much more mingling. >>Doug Sweeney: I want our listeners to hear a little bit about the proclamation trust, which is a wonderful ministry that you have provided significant leadership for for a long time. Just tell us a little bit about what you do. >>Roberts: Well, we go back to the 1980s [inaudible 00:11:48] Dick Lucas who was one of the great preachers still going actually at 99. Not preaching anymore, but he still going strong. He alongside John Stott were the two great Anglican preachers in London in the second half of the 20th century. And Dick started preaching conferences in the 1980s, which really helped John Stott get a wonderful model, but he was away a lot, and Dick also provided a model, he in fact was the preacher, I told you I was listening to tapes of preaching from Colossians and thinking, that’s what I want to do. Well, I was listening to Dick Lucas. And he started these conferences which trained a lot of us how to preach and that has then gone global. In fact, the Simeon Trust here in the U.S., Dave Helm, has really pioneered that out of Chicago, and Dave learned a lot from Dick Lucas. And so, we run an annual evangelical ministry assembly in London. We run preaching conferences, and we produce quite a lot of resources and books. But the whole focus is to try and convince people that expository preaching should be at the heart of faithful ministry in local churches and to try and equip people to do that. >>Doug Sweeney: Thank you for doing it. And of course, we were eager to invite you to serve as out Conger Lecturer in Biblical Preaching because you’re such a fine exemplar preaching and you have been for years teaching people how to do it. While you’re here with us, we want our listeners to know about the messages you’re giving to the students and others, and we’ll have recordings of them available to people who tune into the podcast. But without telling everybody everything that you’ve told the students, can you give us just a little teaser, a little sneak peak as to what we’ll get if we listen to your lectures? >>Roberts: Sure. I mean, there’s a lot I’m saying, but if there’s one theme that came across in this morning’s lecture, and I hope will come across tomorrow, is the sense that the Bible is dynamic, and the Bible text is not just a static collection of truths that we’ve somehow got to mine. And then once we’ve mined the truth out of the text, then with our own abilities, we’ve got to give momentum and try and give energy to those texts. That is a misunderstanding of the Bible. It is not just a collection of truths. It is preaching. Bible books are written with a particular tone in mine and so these truths are directed and designed to have an impact. And the task of the expository preacher, in my view, is to try and spot that momentum, and not just discover truths and then give them momentum but discover the momentum. So, the image that I use today is of a Bible text, and by text I don’t just mean one verse, whatever text one’s preaching on is like a flaming ball of fire hurling through the air with a target in mind, designed to do something. And my task as the preacher is to spot the dynamism in that text. And as it were, serve it in my preaching, recognizing that the particular issue that triggered momentum in the context in which I was first written down is different from the cont4xt in which I’m speaking. But once I can spot that momentum and what triggered it then, I’ve got to think, what is the equivalent issue today, and I can speak that text into it. So, try and spot the dynamism of the text. That to me is so exciting. And it begins, of course, by the preacher themselves being impacted by the Bible. And then once that happens to us, God willing, we can be servants of the same impact on others. >>Doug Sweeney: What a salutary lesson that is for our students. I think many of us in the U.S. really need to double down on this lesson these days. What’s it like in the UK these days for an evangelical churchman like yourself? Are you reasonably confident that the next generation of pastors will be people who are as committed to scripture as you are? Are you worried about the future? What do you think we should be doing, particularly in institutions like Beeson Divinity School, to serve the lord by making sure we’re shaping well the next generation of preachers and pastors? >>Roberts: Sure. I think within the evangelical circles, there is a conviction the Bible is the word of God. So, I think that is there and we can never take that for granted. So, one needs to keep one affirming that and proclaiming it. But I think that is basically there. But as I was telling you this morning, the conviction, the Bible is not only the word of God, but it is God’s contemporary word. It is how God speaks today. God says now what He said then. And that, I think, is really important. Because otherwise, we’ll be tempted to think, well that’s all very well, that’s a record of historic truths and historic lessons that God has said, but if we want to know what God is really doing and where God is really working, we’re looking for some new thing and that is always a danger. And what we in Britain often look to America, because the American evangelical scene is so much bigger that us and there’s normally some new thing, and the danger is we’re thinking, well this is the key. If we really want to grow in churches, we’ve got to do self-church, or we’ve got to do power evangelism, or we’ve got to do whatever it is. I’m talking about historic moments, but there’s always something new coming. And there may be value in the new thing, and of course cultures change and there may be new things that we need to learn, but the most important thing we need to recognize is God works through His word, by His spirit in answer to prayer. So, that’s the key is whatever new things might be coming in, techniques and so on, they are not the big thing. The big thing is to keep proclaiming the word of God in the power of the sprit as we pray. And to keep trusting that God works through His word as He’s always done. And that, I think, we need to keep on underlining, stressing. That’s the core business. >>Doug Sweeney: I agree wholeheartedly. Thank you for preaching this message among us. We have a prayerful set of listeners to the Beeson Podcast. And they would like to be praying for you in your ministry moving forward. So, one nice way we like to conclude these interviews is by asking guests, as our listeners pray for you, pray for Vaughn Roberts and your ministry, how should they be praying? >>Roberts: Thank you very much. First of all, it’s one thing to tell people what I think they should be doing, I’ve got to make sure I’m’ doing myself, stick with the word of God both in preaching it and in living it, receiving it, allowing the word of God to impact me. That’s really important. Then I’m doing that within a cultural context and with an ecclesial context, which is not easy. So, traditional understandings of the Christian gospel are countercultural in the world, but very sadly, within the Anglican church where I serve, they’re countercultural there. And just as most of the mainline denominations around the world in the west, are facing challenges, especially in relation to sexuality, that is splitting the church at the moment. And I’m involved with others in trying to lead the orthodox movement. And we’re praying for a way of being able to stay in the Church of England because of its missional advantages and it’s very beautiful, in my view, tradition. We don’t want to hand that over, but we need to be able to that with integrity. So, we’re fighting for that. So, that’ one thing. But it’s strange, this issue with same sex attraction and so on. That’s been a personal thing for me. And on the one hand, I’m absolutely strong in holding to a little orthodox view. So, in the western world and especially the more liberal western world, that’s my main thing. We’ve got to stick to it. But in other parts of the world where that is taken for granted, I have to count another string to my bow, which is trying to help people engage with the realities of life. And there are people out there who experience same sex attraction, and how do we engage on the one hand with holding firm to God’s truth, and with the other, dealing with these realities wisely, pastorally. And so, I’ve been involved in the Lessan Movement in trying to help on both of those spectrums within the global church. That’s fascinating. So, on one hand, to help the western church stay firm. On the other hand, help churches in traditional context to face the reality that the sexual revolution is hitting us all through the internet and that means many in their churches are schizophrenic. They’re holding to traditional understandings but they’re experiencing their own struggles. And if they’re in a context where you can’t talk about that because this is a very traditional church, they end up being schizophrenic. So, how can we help people hold firm to the truth and engage wisely, pastorally? So, those are the kinds of things I’m doing beyond my own pastoral ministry. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s great. Okay listeners, a lot of very important things for which to pray, about which to pray. Please pray for today’s guest, Pastor Vaughn Roberts, who serves usually as rector. He does serve all the time as rector of Saint Ebbe’s Church in Oxford, but he’s serving this week also here at Beeson Divinity School as our Conger Lecturer in Biblical Preaching. Thank you for your prayers for Beeson Divinity School and its students. We love you and we say goodbye for now. >>Announcer: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast; coming to you from the campus of ɫƵ. Our theme music is by Advent Birmingham. Our announcer is Mark Gignilliat. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our producer is Neal Embry. And our show host is Doug Sweeney. For more episodes and to subscribe, visit BeesonDivinity.com/podcast. You can also find the Beeson Podcast on iTunes, YouTube, and Spotify.