Beeson Podcast, Episode #723 Name Date >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of ɫƵ. Now your host, Doug Sweeney. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I am your host, Doug Sweeney. And I’m joined today by the Reverand Mohammad Sanavi and his wife, Alisha Sanavi. Mohammad has been our guest lecturer for World Christianity Focus Week here at Beeson. I’m proud to say that he’s a graduate of this fine institution. He’s also the founder and teacher of the Bible Training Center for Persians, which offers Farsi speaking pastors and church leaders theological training, equipping them for ministry. So, welcome, my friends, to the program. >>Mohammad Sanavi: Thank you. It’s good to be here. >>Doug Sweeney: Some people already know about you, Mohammad, who’d be listening, but let’s introduce the two of you to our listeners because not everybody will know about you already. Tell us just a little bit about how the two of you came to faith in Jesus, met each other, and got pulled into ministry. >>Mohammad Sanavi: My name is Mohammad Sanavi. I was born in Iran in a Muslim family. And then my parents tried to raise us as a decent person, find a job, have a good education, and one day they see if they have grandkids. And that was their dream. But at the same time, you just follow the tradition and what is the tradition in that land is Islaam. So, we grew up as Muslim, but I remember I started to hear over and over that Christian Holy Book is not correct, it’s corrupted. And nobody could tell me which part and why. And the question in my mind was, if the New Testament was corrupted, why Qur’an is not corrupted? How come God let His old book be corrupted, not the new book? That was a question in my mind. And then later I got a hold of the gospel, and it was through a radio station in Europe. They mailed it to me and of course this is a long time ago, a century ago, and I started to read, and I found all my answers. I thought I’m a perfect man, everything is fine. And according to Islaam, nobody could point at any sin in my life. But reading the scripture, Jesus said, it doesn’t matter if you do it or you think about it, it’s the same I think that was the turning point in my life. I realized I was lied to that all the Christian religion is just kind of, there is no rule, no law, but I said wait a minute, this is harder than Islaam. At least in Islaam doesn’t punish you for the way of thinking. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. >>Mohammad Sanavi: But I fall in love with His character. >>Doug Sweeney: Were there other Christian people that you knew at this time? >>Mohammad Sanavi: No. >>Doug Sweeney: This was just you and the Lord and the Bible. >>Mohammad Sanavi: And the Holy Spirit. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. >>Mohammad Sanavi: The Holy Spirit working in my heart. And Hebrews 4:12 tell us the word of God is living and active. And sometimes I feel, I know I’m jumping further, sometimes I’m trying to convert people. I’m trying to change people’s minds, and I have to remind myself, no, my job is to put the seed in people’s heart. His job is changing their heart. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. Okay so, how did we get from that point in your story to the point in your life when you are becoming an evangelist and a minister? >>Mohammad Sanavi: Yeah. Well, you heard my story yesterday in the chapel, the testimony of Pastor Jose. And that affected my life. >>Doug Sweeney: Tell our listeners just a little bit about that in case they don’t all get to hear the sermon in chapel. >>Mohammad Sanavi: Sure. Pastor Jose was told not to speak in public anymore. And that particular night when we got together in our church and when we asked him to pray, first he refused. I mean, he didn’t respond to the request. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. >>Mohammad Sanavi: But when he came at the end, he prayed and left. And later he told us he was told not to pray- >>Alisha Sanavi: By the government. >>Mohammad Sanavi: The government said don’t speak, don’t pray. But he said the second time you guys prayed and called my name, I was thinking, do I need to listen to government, or do I need to listen to this good church? Just like Daniel. He was forbidden to pray but he did. And in fact, me and my friends, we were comparing him to Daniel. Look what happened. But unfortunately, in his life, he was taken to prison, and they kill him. I don’t want to say that was the turning point in my life, I was doing the evangelism, but I was more brave after that. And I kind of saw the cost of following Jesus. Going to be expensive. And for most of us in ministry, when we read those passages, take your cross, Bible is alive. In fact, we don’t get sad or upset for the hardship that comes to our life because we see oh, whatever Jesus said is happening. So, His word is true. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. Alisha, how about you? How did you come to know the Lord? And maybe you can tell us how you met Mohammad. >>Alisha Sanavi: Yeah. I grew up in a Christian family. We went to church and had really good teachers and everything like that. I memorized the scriptures, I had it in my heart. I mean, I had it in my mind, but it really wasn’t until I got to university that it moved from my mind to my heart and really surrendered myself to the Lord. And it wasn’t long after that that the Lord started showing me His heart for the nations. And just as I began praying for peoples around the world that had no access to the gospel or just unreached in general, the Lord kept leading me in different directions but my last year in university He said, you need to go. And so yeah, after finishing university I went overseas, and my first stop was in Cyprus, and he was there as well at that point. And yeah, that’s not when things happened, but we did meet each other at that point. But it was about a year or so later that we, because I was moving around to different countries and doing things like that, but yeah, later we realized that the Lord was drawing our paths together. And so, yeah, so we were married not long after that. >>Doug Sweeney: I’ve bet some of our listeners would enjoy hearing just a little bit more about your early ministry. >>Alisha Sanavi: Okay. >>Doug Sweeney: And what was it like for you as a young, at first a young single woman, traveling around within the Middle East mostly as an evangelist. Was that scary? Did the Lord just give you courage? How did that go for you? >>Alisha Sanavi: I don’t know that fear was really there. I think part or that was because I had to trust. I had no one else to trust but the Lord. And so, and just the fact that I knew, I had learned earlier that obedience was one step at a time. And if I took the next step of obedience, whatever He had for me would be there because we don’t’ know what’s going to happen the next day, the next hour, or whatever. But there were other issues because being in Muslim countries as a single woman, you had a steep learning curve trying to figure out how to interact with people, who to talk with, how to approach people with the gospel. And just figuring that out and observing, I think I spent the first several months just trying to watch and see how, I kept watching the locals and seeing how other Christians and just how they interacted with one another to see how I could best make an inroad. And some of that was just I found the Lord gives us gifts and He uses those wherever we are. And one of the gifts He had given me was just to listen to people. They would come to me with their troubles and their problems, what had gone wrong with them that day, or even their celebrations. And through those opportunities of their heartache or their pain or rejoining in other things, He gave opportunities to speak truth into their life and share the hope that we have. But also, just point them to Christ through that. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. What’s the, is there a gender, there must be, a gender dimension to that kind of ministry because it’s inappropriate in a lot of those cultures for a woman to speak directly to a man, right? So, are you working with a lot of women and families for a while and then getting to the men through the women? >>Alisha Sanavi: Yeah. I don’t, unless there was some odd situation, I rarely spoke or shared to men unless it was a group conversation. And that was frustrating at first and it was hard at first because I’d see all these men on the street, but there weren’t that many ladies out on the street. And if they were there, they were busy, they had a plan. They weren’t wanting to just talk to some stranger on the street and hang out. And so, it took a lot of prayer and just, you know, praying for inroads for people, for the Lord to bring the people across my path to be ablet to form a relationship with any open doors. And through that, you get to know the children, you get to know their sisters or sisters-in-law, and then you get invited to groups like family gatherings. And it would be during that time that while I as having conversations with other ladies and the guys would be a part of that or whatever, that there would be opportunity to maybe speak into that with the men. So, yeah. >>Doug Sweeney: Great. Alright, so tell us how the Bible Training Center for Persians came to be. How old is it? How did it get started? >>Mohammad Sanavi: Well, when we went into ministry after I finished my school in 2004, we tried to just serve people, and we usually invite them into our home. So, they’d stay with us sometimes a week, two weeks, and the conversations never happened within one hour. Sometimes you need a week of time with that person, then they start to share with you. And in the beginning, everything is fine, no problem. And then slowly you find out there are issues. So, we started to, based on their needs, try to provide a package of training or send some different articles or literature, and that’s how it came about. And after a while, at that time we had so many churches open in our country in Iran, so as a I contact and relationship with those pastors, we found out it’s easier for us to do some training, discipleship training, than for him. When we were able to do it in one week, he could do it maybe in six months because he’s busy with everyday ministry, church administration, and dealing with the government, and a lot of other work. So, we agreed to do that. So, the local church or the network of house churches, the pastor or elders would send people to us. And we just not take them to the hotel, but they stay in our home. >>Doug Sweeney: Okay. >>Mohammad Sanavi: And then the training, basically we never use the word training. We say oh, we’re going to have some study together. It was a Bible study. >>Doug Sweeney: Okay. >>Mohammad Sanavi: And we try to make it something they can copy back home. So, that’s what happened. It was in the beginning and then along the way, we saw more need and then we kind of, okay, now is the time and the ladies are mature enough to keep them in different package. And then the pastoral and leadership training came. Along with that we had more, you want to say, deeper literature. We had to get theological literature. And yeah, that’s the way it happened. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. Alisha, how difficult is evangelistic work with Persians in Iran or outside of Iran? I mean, I think a lot of us who don’t know a lot about the details know it must be especially difficult these days. Some things are legal, some things are illegal, etc. Can you tell us just a little bit, give us a more textured feel for the challenges so we can pray better. >>Alisha Sanavi: Within the country, of course, you have the government issue to deal with where it is illegal to openly evangelize and things like that. But in general, a lot of the evangelism comes through relationships. And the loudest evangelism tool I could say you could use is your life. The way you live and the way you love people, they will watch that before they listen to you. If they don’t see that what you’re saying matches up, there is not reason for them to listen to you share about the love of Christ that He has for them and who this Christ is. But in general, Iranians just by nature, they’re very warm. They’re very welcoming. They’d be happy to talk to you. They’re very open to religious conversation so that inroad is not hard, just starting the conversation. But you have to be prepared for some push back after a while. They do like to debate with you, which is natural. But they are very warm and again, just loving and caring and very hospitable. But yeah, they do observe and that’s why I mentioned before, I needed to observe them to see how they interacted and then once you see that, you see that they watch people and they’re very keen on discerning if what you say is what you actually believe. And they can tell that pretty quickly. >>Doug Sweeney: Would that we were all as careful about that. >>Alisha Sanavi: Yeah, so. >>Mohammad Sanavi: And one thing you need to know in Iran, everybody’s fed up with government because whatever they say is for people, not for them. And so, when they come to your house, then they are in touch with you. They want to see what you are teaching, if it’s real in your private life. And so, when they come to our home, over and over people are saying, you know, the class is great, the Bible study is great, but we learn more about the gospel when we live with you and when I saw how you treat your wife, how you treat your children, and how you interact with your other friends. That was the greatest lesson. >>Doug Sweeney: Mohammad, there are a lot of people who are connected to Beeson who listen to this podcast who are gospel people. They’re either active in one way or another doing missionary work themselves, they’re at least praying in this work, supporting it by their giving in churches and so on. Help them to know more than they do already about how one should prepare to be a gospel witness. I’ll start big. I know it’s hard to make big generalizations, but I’m thinking about the Muslim world. You know, the parts of the Muslim world where you have been the most active, if somebody’s going to be a faithful, fruitful, gospel minister in a context like yours, what’s the best way to prepare? >>Mohammad Sanavi: Alright. I know some people would like to see verses for everything they do in their life, so let me give some verses. In Book of Daniel, we find out that those young men went to the palace, but they were under training for three years. Three years learning the language, learning the culture, and then they started to serve for the King. That is key for mission work. >>Alisha Sanavi: Longevity. >>Mohammad Sanavi: For longevity. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. >>Mohammad Sanavi: If you want to see the fruit of your ministry, just be patient for the first two years. And of course, you need to have a pastor or a mission community that they agree with that. So, you are going to just study the culture for two years and do nothing? Not really, but my job, I mean, and that’s why some organizations that we are in touch with them, we found out they sent their missionaries in a small city or sometimes in a village that the people are not involved or busy with everyday life activity. Can you imagine you send your missionary to a mega city? It takes like eight hours a day to just survive there. You’re not going to learn the culture. So, they send them to a small city or a small village and do nothing but just develop relationships with the locals. But here is another thing that I learned from my old friend that is with the Lord now; he said, “If you want to work with a missionary in Muslim, the best thing is go to the small city and try being a Christian in that city because if you make a mistake, they will forgive you because they know you are trying to learn. But if you go into another city, particularly the Muslim, your mistake is your last.” >>Doug Sweeney: Alisha, a lot of our people want to be praying for the spread of the gospel in the Muslim world, the spread of the gospel in the Middle East in particular. I’ll ask Mohammad to weigh in on this as well, but let’s just start with you. What’s the situation there today in Iran, let’s say, or in the parts of the Muslim world that are near it in the Middle East? Are Christians doing well? Are there lots of Christians? Are the reports we usually hear about the spread of the gospel and Iran inflated a bit? What should we know about what’s really happening on the ground? >>Alisha Sanavi: First, praise the Lord that He’s working. I mean, daily we’re seeing that He’s working and changing hearts and people are coming to know Him, which is amazing. I mean, when we think of Iran, we think of it being this closed off, everything is forbidden, just it’s almost impossible to reach. But God, you can’t keep the spirit of God out of there. And so, people are coming to faith through ways that we might not in the west see as legitimate means of coming to faith. I mean, as he mentioned in his testimony, just through having the scripture, no one around you, people are finding it online or maybe in copy somehow. Just through reading the word, the spirit is touching their heart and they’re seeing the truth. Other things are programs on satellite or through the internet. They have access to these tools that we didn’t have 20 years ago or what not. And so, especially with the younger generation, they are seeking those things out. They’re seeking for something different, which is quite encouraging, but it also puts responsibility on this to provide them with things that are definitely pointing them to the truth of Christ. So, that is exciting. They do, for believers in Iran and in other Muslim countries, that isolation is a key point because most of them are in house churches. They do have to worry about government scrutiny, about them watching out over them, watching their movements and things like that. So, they do have to be careful who they’re in contact with, how they contact one another, and how visual those interactions are. So, isolation can be a hard thing because it might be months or for some of our friends, even years before they can interact with other believers in person. And so, that’s something they can be praying for is just those that are isolated. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. That’s good. Mohammad, do you want to add to that? I want to get to a question for you also about praying for maybe giving financially to supporting the Bible Training Center for Persians. But can you add onto a little bit of what Alisha said? And then let’s talk about how we can support your ministry. >>Mohammad Sanavi: It is a very slow process. It’s not, if you are in the business to see the result within a few months, you are in the wrong area. It’s like raising children. It takes whatever we have done in the past, like 10 years ago, 15 years ago, now we see the result. I like to talk about my friend Hasan. Eighteen years we prayed for him. When I say a prayer, almost every day in the morning, in the evening. Eighteen years, every time he came to our home, we share the gospel with him. But it took 18 years. But again, as I mentioned, it is not our job to change people’s hearts. When the time was correct, God did that. And yeah, be patient and He will change people’s heart. Try to plan for the next 20 years. >>Doug Sweeney: Okay. And then how has all of this information about the realities on the ground in the Middle East shaped the ministry that you have developed, the Bible Training Center? >>Mohammad Sanavi: When we kind of try to find out what the needs are- >>Alisha Sanavi: You have to be a bit fluid. Kind of flow with what is needed at a given time. So, yeah. >>Mohammad Sanavi: And so, we said okay, we are there to serve them. What can we do? So, everything we have done in the past, all the books we translated, that’s really something they needed, we found out they don’t have much time everyday to go and listen to some sermon or read books. Most of them, they spend hours in the traffic. So, we said, what can we do? And all of a sudden during pandemic, our podcast program started. And we started with the devotions. >>Doug Sweeney: They can listen in the car. >>Mohammad Sanavi: Exactly. And in fact, I received a call from one of my pastor friends in the country that he has like six or seven house churches. He said, “Man, this is wonderful.” I said, “I’m so glad it’s pleasing you.” He said, “You know what these messages are doing for me?” I said, “Tell me.” He said, “Every five minutes past the message is getting me ready to write down my sermon.” So, he's taking the five minutes devotion while he’s driving to his work, maybe that’s half an hour, but he studies over the sermon. And I said then, I don’t need to be worried about what I need to do next because I don’t have time. When I say people, they don’t have time, some folks, they really work 16 hours, 18 hours a day to just survive. >>Doug Sweeney: So, Alisha, help fill that out just a little bit for us by telling us what’s the array of things that you guys do in the Bible Training Center to provide these sorts of resources for people in the Farsi speaking world. >>Alisha Sanavi: Okay. Yeah, as he mentioned, we try to see what their needs are. Sometimes it’s more discipleship if they need discipleship tools. One of the great things about Iranians is they’re very, how do I say, they’re easy to share their faith. Once they’ve been touched with the gospel, after they’ve grown enough where they’re confident in Christ, you don’t really have to hold them back from sharing. >>Doug Sweeney: Okay. They’re not all telling you they don’t have the gift of evangelism. >>Alisha Sanavi: That’s right. No, you don’t have that. They’re very eager to share with their family and friends, for the most part. There’s always the exception. >>Mohammad Sanavi: And you don’t need to train them to go and evangelize. They do it themselves. >>Alisha Sanavi: They love to talk. >>Doug Sweeney: Wonderful. >>Alisha Sanavi: Talking, they all have the gift of conversation, I guess. And so, that’s an outpouring of how God created them. But some of them need help when it comes to discipleship. They say I’ve had people that, you know, the Lord has brought to himself and I’m in touch with them, I shared with them, or just the Lord brought them to my path and so I need help knowing how to disciple them better. Can you either help with that or do you have materials that I can use to do that? So that’s, we have materials for that. We’ve provided discipleship training if they, again, time is a factor, just to help them with that. Another thing is leadership training. In every discipleship group, you see those that seem like they have a passion to serve others. And when you see that, whether it be to serve other ladies, whether it be to teach kids, whether it be to teach other adults or just do all the workings of a hospitality or whatever, you know, these are the giftings the spirit has given them to try to equip them in way so that they can serve more effectively. So, we have things to help them as they grow on to maturity and leadership development, how to prepare lesson plans, how to prepare sermons, and you know. Just, the main thing through all of this is that they’re rooted in scripture. If they are not rooted in the scripture, it will all fall away because they’re passing on ideas, they’re passing on concept, they’re passing on methods, but they need to be passing on the word of God. And if that’s where it is, they can withstand whatever persecution comes. They can withstand whatever ups and downs or storms or whatever comes in their life, they are able to stand on the word of God and that sustains them through all of that. >>Mohammad Sanavi: And people ask us, how do you choose which material needs to be translated into Farsi? I think we have over 60 titles that I have translated into Farsi. I say, if the book makes the leader or the reader fall in love with the scripture, take the person back to the scripture and translate that, not just into a wonderful story. In fact, in recent years, I started to read some of the Puritan material and we, I’m pleased to say as of this year, we are going to translate some of the Puritan material because it really touches your heart and make you fall in love with Jesus and try to get to know God in the scripture. Oh, by the way, they are sort of small. It’s not three, four hundred pages, you know. A hundred pages is the most. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah, that’s great. Id people want to learn more, Alisha, about the ministry, can they go online? How can people kind of plug in and provide prayer support, financial support? >>Alisha Sanavi: Yeah. We do have a website. Sadly, it’s mainly in Farsi. I don’t know sadly, you know, but it is in Farsi. >>Doug Sweeney: How’s AI doing at translating Farsi. >>Alisha Sanavi: That’s right. Exactly. Because our goal is to provide and make the materials available for those who speak Farsi. But I don’t know, is there stuff on our page? >>Mohammad Sanavi: Well, we have a new English title with Farsi so it’s easy for the English speakers. It’s going to be btcpersians.com. >>Doug Sweeney: Okay. Btcpersians, with an s, dot com. >>Mohammad Sanavi: And those who know Farsi, it is [foreign language 00:30:21].com. Center for book in translation. >>Doug Sweeney: Okay, thanks. >>Mohammad Sanavi: And you want to spell [foreign language 00:30:28]? >>Alisha Sanavi: Kanoneketab.com. >>Doug Sweeney: Great. I’m not going to repeat that one. >>Alisha Sanavi: That’s right. >>Mohammad Sanavi: Everything there, of course when you go there, you have access to our YouTube channel, you have access to sound cloud. All our literature, books, whatever we have, it’s pdf, free of charge. So, you receive it freely, we give it freely. And that’s our goal. >>Doug Sweeney: Alright. We’re going to end by giving our listeners specific prayer requests they can be praying about for you. But before we do that, I want to remind everybody that the occasion of this interview is that Mohammad is our world Christianity Focus Week speaker and we’re going to make recordings of your talks available on the web as well. And we’ll link some of these other goodies to the recordings of the talks. Tell us, just real briefly, what have you been telling to the students this week? What’s your message to the students that you want them to take away from this week? >>Mohammad Sanavi: Read the scripture. You want to know God, read the scripture. And that’s what I was trained here. The lectures are wonderful. The messages are wonderful. But if I don’t read the scriptures, that’s a big mistake. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. >>Mohammad Sanavi: And I also talk to the others that I don’t need to really try to make things happen. God wants my obedience. If I put my yes on the table, He will open the door for me. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. That is a blocker, isn’t it, for lots of people? >>Mohammad Sanavi: Yeah. >>Doug Sweeney: They feel like, I don’t have what it takes to be used by the Lord in these ways. >>Mohammad Sanavi: Well, the Bible reads that those that were great men and women of God, they had some issue. But it is not me who is going to do that work, it’s the Lord. Let me tell you this story. You won’t believe that when Mother Teresa received the Nobel Prize, I can’t remember which year, it was 30 plus years ago, maybe more, Iranian regime put their whole page of the national paper that had interview. >>Doug Sweeney: Oh, Mother Teresa? >>Mohammad Sanavi: Mother Teresa. >>Doug Sweeney: Okay. >>Mohammad Sanavi: And I was a young Christian at those days. Something draw my attention and it was bold in the middle of the newspaper. The reporter asked, “Mother, you are such a tiny lady. How on earth were you able to do what you have done in the past?’ she said, “I’m a pin in His hat. He’s writing this story, not me.” And I think that one of the moments that changed my view of the ministry was that moment. And I change it to my own version. I said, “I’m a pencil in His hand. He keeps sharpening me and one day, I’m gone. But His story is going to be there.” >>Doug Sweeney: That’s a great word. Alright, why don’t we conclude our conversation by giving our listeners some things to be praying for. Alisha, we’ll end with Mohammad, but can we start with you? >>Alisha Sanavi: Sure. >>Doug Sweeney: What kinds of things should people be going to the Lord about? >>Alisha Sanavi: Yeah. I’m sorry, if I read these, it’s because I wrote them down. >>Doug Sweeney: Great. >>Alisha Sanavi: Just one, to pray for wisdom and protection for the laborers in Iran and throughout the Middle East as they share the gospel and disciple others, that they would have discernment in navigating, especially security training, I mean security challenges. Another one is just pray for the house churches to remain steadfast and encouraged despite the isolation that they might be experiencing, and for safe opportunities for believers to connect with and strengthen one another. >>Doug Sweeney: Good, good. Anything you’d like to add, Mohammad, as we conclude prayerfully? >>Mohammad Sanavi: Pray for us because sometimes it is really tiring. You get phone call at two o’clock in the morning and sometimes you realize you don’t really have your own private life, which is good if you’re called into ministry- >>Doug Sweeney: Kind of makes you tired sometimes. >>Mohammad Sanavi: But yes, and we don’t give up when we see some people walking away. And that’s the greatest challenge that we have. We see 10 years, we pour our lives in somebody and then something happens. But the good news is we saw those people coming back. It encourages. But in the beginning, it discourages. So, pray for us that we continue what we are doing. >> Doug Sweeney: We will. Okay friends, you have been listening to Mohammad and Alisha Sanavi. Mohammad has been the guest speaker this week for World Christianity Focus Week here at Beeson Divinity School. He, along with Alisha, leads the Bible Training Center for Persians. They have lots of things that they would like us to be praying for them about, and maybe providing other kinds of support for as well. Thank you for tuning in. We love you. We’re praying for you. And we say goodbye for now. >>Announcer: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast; coming to you from the campus of ɫƵ. Our theme music is by Advent Birmingham. Our announcer is Mark Gignilliat. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our producer is Neal Embry. And our show host is Doug Sweeney. For more episodes and to subscribe, visit BeesonDivinity.com/podcast. You can also find the Beeson Podcast on iTunes, YouTube, and Spotify.