Faith and History: Half of the History

Published on April 1, 2019

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". . . I often tell students, you cannot understand the civil rights movement if you don't understand the black church and if you don’t understand Christianity."

Chapters

Introduction: An Archivist's View of Faith and History

Michelle Little and Claire Davis introduce Bayley Sharp's podcast, in which she interviews Dr. Jim Baggett about the relationship between faith and history.

Play Segment

A Historian's Identity

Jim Baggett discusses the importance of a historian's identity on his or her work, as well as the importance of understanding the cultural contexts of the people and events a historian is studying. He also emphasizes the importance of community history.

Play Segment

Different Perspectives

Jim Baggett explains the importance of both secular and faith-influenced interpretations of history.

Play Segment

Transcript

[HARWELL GOODWIN DAVIS: He stated that he had been appointed to suggest a
president for Howard College.

EUNICE ROGERS: And so there was a lot of industry in Bessemer when I grew up, a
lot of progressiveness. However, it was still a typical, small, Southern town.

OLIVER BARREAU: To be perfectly honest with you, um, I didn't know what Alabama
was until I set foot in Alabama.

ELIZABETH SLOAN RAGLAND: I was not greeted by hecklers. I was greeted by Martha
Ann Cox.]

MICHELLE LITTLE: Welcome back to Sam.wav. We are your hosts, Michelle Little--

CLAIRE DAVIS: --and Claire Davis.

MICHELLE LITTLE: And we're introducing the last installment in our Faith and
History mini-series.

CLAIRE DAVIS: So far, we've showcased interviews that lean more heavily into the
faith aspect of this project. This installment explores the work of an
historian. In today's episode, Bayley Sharp interviews Dr. Jim Baggett, an
archivist at the Birmingham Public Library, in her investigation into the goals
of archiving and how he acknowledges religious bias in his work.

(musical interlude)

BAILEY SHARP: My name is Bailey Sharp, and on October 11, 2018, I met with Jim
Baggett, in his office at the Birmingham Archives in downtown Birmingham,
Alabama. Mr. Baggett is one of the archivists at the Birmingham Archives that is
located within the Birmingham Public Library. Going into my conversation with
Mr. Baggett I was curious how a professional historian who does not specialize
in any kind of faith or religious studies views the relationship of faith and
history. Since I was in the Birmingham archives, to begin out conversation, I
asked Mr. Baggett about the different documents that are found within the archives.

BAILEY SHARP: Of the archives here, um, how many of them do you think have some
link to religion, the church, or faith?

JIM BAGGETT: Quite a bit actually, um, there are obvious examples. For instance,
we're the archives for the Episcopal Diocese of Alabama, and that's a large
collection of church records, papers of the bishops, um, as well as papers of
Episcopal families. We also hold the archives for two of Birmingham's
synagogues, and a number of Presbyterian churches in Birmingham. And also papers
of clergymen, um, but then, you know, there are many collections that have
material relating to religion. Obviously family papers would be one example of
that, our photograph collections, our postcard collections, which include images
of churches, um... And you know, there are also connections that aren't overt.
For instance our civil rights collections, um, document the role of the African
American church in the civil right movement in Birmingham. And, um, you know, I
often tell students, you cannot understand the civil rights movement if you
don't understand the black church and if you don't understand Christianity.
And, um, so you know there are, I mean we're in the south so religion permeates
almost everything, and so there's a, there are a great many connections here.

BAILEY SHARP: So of these document that you have mentioned, how often are they
used, and what are these researchers looking for in these documents?

JIM BAGGETT: Yeah, it, it varies, um, you know with the church records, um,
often times it's researchers working on family histories and genealogies, so
they are looking at marriage records, baptismal records, that sort of thing. Um,
the Episcopal church records are also used quite a bit looking at the role of
the Episcopal church in the civil rights movement, and then there are also,
within the Episcopal records, old parish registers, that record baptisms,
conformations, and so forth that include enslaved people and so those records are
used, uh, both to look at religion and slavery but also again, to look at
African American genealogy. And the civil rights collections are heavily used,
and one area that interests many researchers are the police reports on the civil
rights mass meetings that for about a decade, starting in the mid-50s, um, where
held each week in different African American churches, and so those reports not
only document what was said and happened at those meeting but which black
churches were home to civil rights activity in Birmingham.

BAILEY SHARP: I found it surprising how many documents at the Birmingham
archives were related to religion, whether it be obvious, such as church
records, or less obvious, such as documents from mass meetings during the civil
rights movement. I then moved on to ask Mr. Baggett about the relationship of a
person's identity and their work.

BAILEY SHARP: So, do you think that a historian's identity plays a role in how
they do their work?

JIM BAGGETT: I do actually, yeah, um, now I do think that any historian can
bring value to any topic. I don't think you have to be a particular gender, or
orientation, or race to be able to legitimately study any subject, but I
do think that your personal experiences, um, do, um, influence how you
approach history. I mean, personally, I've studied, um, white supremacists quite
a bit and I think that one thing that gives me, um, that strength is my
understanding of white supremacists, is that's the world I grew up in, you know,
those are the kind of people that I grew up around, while I don't agree with
their beliefs, I certainly understand this world that they come out of. I've
also noticed in recent years, um, especially with younger students, high school
and college, um, more and more they're coming in with little or no understanding
of the church or Christianity when they're studying civil rights, and, you know,
I tell students, you don't have to be a practicing Christian but if
you--for an instance, um, when Martin Luther King marched in Birmingham and was
arrested in 1963, he deliberately marched on April 12, which was Good Friday,
and you know, that's loaded with symbolism and he was a trained theologian, he
understood exactly the symbolism of what he was doing by sacrificing himself on
Good Friday. And his followers understood the symbolic nature of what he was
doing and his opponents, I mean, Bull Connor also would have understood the
symbolic power of sacrificing himself on Good Friday. And then, during that stay
in jail, he wrote the first draft of the Letter from Birmingham Jail, the same
way that Paul wrote letters from jail, um, and more and more, when I ask
students the question, "why Good Friday, why wouldn't he march on Thursday or
Saturday?" and more and more I find they can't answer that question and, you
know, it, I don't see how you can understand Martin King without understanding
theology and the black church. And so, you know I, I think there's, uh, there's
a hole there and in these young people's educations, and as I said you
don't have to be a member of a church, but I think you do need to
understand the importance of theology and Christianity and Christian beliefs to
the people who were involved in these movements the same way you couldn't
understand abolitionist movement without understanding Christianity.

BAILEY SHARP: Right.

BAILEY SHARP: I thought that Mr. Baggett made a really important point. Religion
was very important to a lot of the people that are studied in history and having
an understanding of religion and faith can lead to a deeper understanding of
historical events. The example of Martin Luther King Jr. and his arrest in
Birmingham on Good Friday really resonated with me. That entire event is full of
religious symbolism and to ignore that would be ignoring half of the history.

BAILEY SHARP: So how do you see your wor- work or your role as an archivist?

JIM BAGGETT: Um, in a variety of ways. I mean, one thing that I spend a lot of
time doing is going out into the community, giving talks, um, meeting with
organizations, meeting with individuals, um, to raise awareness that this
archives exist because an archives is, is an odd thing, you know, and, and most
people, you don't just stumble across an archives; it's something that you
discover when you ave a need for it, and we're very fortunate here in
Birmingham that we have on the finest city archives in the nation, and many
people don't know that, and they don't know that's open to the public, we're in
the public library, anyone who wants to can walk in and use these collections
anytime we're open so, I see, raising awareness and also raising awareness in
different communities of the importance of everyone's history, because people
still sometimes assume that if your grandfather wasn't a mayor of the city or a
great industrialist that your family's history doesn't matter and so I
spend a great deal of time talking about that to groups, um, that every family's
history matters, every community's history matters. And then of course there's
just, there's the role of, of assisting and encouraging research, and there's
the role of collecting more material, we collect more material every year, and
preserving that material and, and processing it so that's available so that
researchers can come here and use it.

BAILEY SHARP: I really liked what Mr. Baggett said about everyone's history
being important. I thought it was very relevant to the discussion of faith in
history. When looking at historical events the faith or religious aspects of the
event are just as important as any other. After my conversation with Mr. Baggett
it became clear to me that the archives are there to preserve - best they can -
everyone's history, because it is all important. I then shifted to conversation
to asking questions about faith and history, and I asked Mr. Baggett if he
thought that a person's beliefs about history shape the way they view their
faith, and vice versa.

JIM BAGGETT: Your, your faith certainly, you know, informs how you interpret not
only the present but also the past. And I think when you have a greater
knowledge of history, you understand better the place of religion and, and human
culture. You also understand the similarities of different religions, um, the
precursors of our religions, I think it, it, um, you know, I think there's, um,
there's un-questioning faith but then there's also informed faith, and I think
if you are, if you understand history you have informed faith.

BAILEY SHARP: I found what Mr. Baggett said about informed faith very
interesting. Often times, our discussions are centered around faith's effect on
history. However, as Mr. Baggett points out, history can also affect faith. But
I was still curious how a historian's faith or lack thereof can affect their
research and writing on religion.

JIM BAGGETT: Um, I think, you know, in my experience some historians who are
secular people, who are not people of faith, are sometimes dismissive of faith,
um...or, or sometimes simply don't--as I was saying with King, and, and, you
know, the Good Friday recipe--don't understand the importance of faith to the
people that they're studying. And um... And also the, I, I, could see where a
historian, um, who is very invested in their faith might, that might color their
interpretations of the past and, and, um, and might, um, cause them to over
emphasize certain aspects of the past, certain events, certain motivations and,
and not fully appreciate, perhaps, the counter to that.

BAILEY SHARP: Mmhm. Kind of like they're missing something.

JIM BAGGETT: Yeah, exactly.

BAILEY SHARP: Yeah.

JIM BAGGETT: Yeah, um, either way, it can, you can have a blind spot either way
Whether you are a person of faith or of, of not faith.

BAILEY SHARP: There's no doubt about that being aware of biases is very
important when conducting scholarship and researching. I wanted to get Mr.
Baggett's opinion on if he thought scholars should avoid certain types of
scholarship because of their biases.

BAILEY SHARP: When we're having conversations about faith, um, do secular
historians--non-believing historians--do they have a role in writing about
faith, and then do historians have a-- that do come from a faith background have
a role in writing about things that aren't faith-- Like, can you approach
history through a lens of faith?

JIM BAGGETT: Well, I think you can, and I think that's perfectly legitimate, um,
as long as you don't allow that to, um, prejudice your, your views and, and
your approach to history you know, because we all bring beliefs and baggage and
biases and things with us so-- And, and I think that secular historians can--for
one thing there's no one historian who's going to definitively define, you know,
um, a historical event or a historical figure. You know, every historian who
looks at a topic brings something different, a different perspective, a
different outlook, a different interpretation and so a secular historian may
interpret Martin King, for instance, you know, in one way, um, a historian who's
a person of faith may interpret King a different way, um, and both of those
interpretations may add to our understanding of King. So, um, as I said earlier,
I don't, I don't think we should we exclude anyone who wants to study a
topic and try to learn and understand and offer their perspective. They may be
wrong in their, in their conclusions, but I don't think that who you are or
what you believe should ever preclude you from, from approaching any historical topic.

BAILEY SHARP: I thought that Mr. Baggett made some really good points about the
lenses through which we approach history and the world. To finish up our
conversation, I wanted to see how his beliefs affect him and his work.

BAILEY SHARP: Do your personal beliefs shape your outlook on the world and the
way that you approach people and your role as an archivist?

JIM BAGGETT: I'm sure they do, and probably in ways I don't even know, um... I,
let's see, what are my personal beliefs? Um, I, I think of myself as a very open
person, um, I work with a lot of different communities, um, I, I work with
people with whom I do not agree, politically or socially, um, but I think to be
an effective archivist, especially when you are doing something like Birmingham
history or um, you have to be sort of amoral in your work. You know, I've sat
down at the table with civil rights activists and I've sat down at the table
with Klansmen, and... I, I don't, I think in situations like that I just have to
put my personal beliefs aside because I feel like I'm working for a greater
good, which is to preserve our history.

BAILEY SHARP: Mmhm.

JIM BAGGETT: I won't sit there and agree with the Klansmen, but I'm also not
going to pick a fight with him because there's no value in that, in terms of
acquiring from him information that we want to preserve, and so, uh, and, I
really try not to let my beliefs influence how I do my work. I'm sure they do
but I, I, I try to, um, I try to avoid that as much as possible. (phone dings) I
have a very strong belief in fairness and accuracy and, um, because a good bit
of my work has been studying civil rights (phone dings) and white supremacists,
um, that, that's a difficult area sometimes, because, you know when you're
studying a figure that you believe is on the wrong side of history, but you
still want to be fair and accurate. That's not the same as trying to
rehabilitate that figure, but it's sometimes viewed that way by some people,
and, you know, it can be difficult sometimes to be fair to someone who you
really find despicable. But I, I think it's, I think it's vital that we do that,
and, you know, because you're not producing good history otherwise, and again
we're living in a time when, you know, our discourse is so poisoned that, you
know, I think that we have, it's even more important, as we write history, uh,
during this time, to be fair, to be balanced as much as you can as a human being.

BAILEY SHARP: In our interview, Mr. Baggett described himself as trying to be a
very open person and I truly believe that he approaches his role as an archivist
in that way as well. He talked about how he sees himself as, and I quote,
"working toward a greater good." He told me how he believes that everyone's
history is important and in his role as an archivist his goal seems to be to
preserve all history as it is for the sake of preservation. This was very clear
when he told me about interviewing members of the Ku Klux Klan as well as civil
rights activists, all in an attempt to tell all sides of the story. Including
all sides of the story is not only good scholarship, but it is also good
history, and it allows for a deeper understanding of historical events and
figures. This applies to faith and history as well. In order to fully understand
historical events and figures we must also understand the faith the goes along
with them.

(musical interlude)

MICHELLE LITTLE Our theme and background music was produced by ɫ����Ƶ student
Kerry Joiner. Dr. Jim Baggett was interviewed by Bayley Sharp. Today's
episode was produced by Bayley Sharp, with introduction and credits by Michelle
Little and Claire Davis. This is a ɫ����Ƶ Traditions and Oral History
Recordings Initiative production. For more information on our program, you can
find our page on the ɫ����Ƶ website or follow us on social media at Facebook
and Instagram at ɫ����Ƶ_STORI and on Twitter at SU_STORI.

(typewriter ding)

Audio Information
Attribute	Value
Interviewer	Bailey Sharp
Interviewee	Jim Baggett
Repository	ɫ��Ƶ Oral History Collection
Accession	SUHist/STORI013

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